TRANSCRIPT - 48 HOURS - OCTOBER 4th, 2002
Searching For A Killer
Lesley Stahl: Good evening and welcome to 48 Hours Investigates. I'm Lesley Stahl. Tonight we've got
something remarkable for you. If you're like most Americans, you probably think that John and Patsy
Ramsey are hiding something in the murder of their daughter, JonBenét. In fact, in a new poll for 48
Hours Investigates, 52 percent say they believe one or both parents were involved in the murder in
some way. Erin Moriarty reports the results of our exclusive investigation that could change your mind.
Part 1 - Under Suspicion
John Ramsey: "She was the spark plug of our family. Because of this zest that she had, she just kept
things alive and hopping. It's not the same without her."
Patsy Ramsey: "Why is it so hard for people to understand that we loved this child with everything in
our being?" We would never touch a hair on the head of one of our children. I mean it just is
inconceivable to me."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) Their faces are instantly recognizable, but John and Patsy Ramsey are
famous in a way no one would want.
Although they have never publicly been called suspects or charged with the 1996 death of their
daughter, JonBenét, they are resigned to a painful reality.
John Ramsey: "We could find the killer tomorrow... he could be arrested, convicted and you know, jailed,
and there'd still be 20 per cent of the population would think that we had something to do with it"
Erin Moriarty: "48 Hours Investigates is taking a fresh look at the Ramsey case. You will hear about
new evidence and new leads. We will also tell you the Ramseys' personal story and what they think
happen here in their Boulder, Colorado home on Christmas night nearly six years ago."
Detective Tom Haney: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Okay,
John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "She screamed my
name and ....."
Erin Moriarty: "We will also show tonight something that has never been seen publicly - video tapes of
the police interrogation of both John and Patsy Ramsey."
Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I didn't do it....
John Ramsey didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it."
Erin Moriarty: "But first the Ramseys today. In a rare interview, they agreed to completely unrestricted
discussion of the case."
Erin Moriarty: "Did your daughter have a bedwetting incident that night? Did you get up? Did you get
angry and did you hurt her?"
Patsy Ramsey: "No I did not."
Erin Moriarty: "What is your reaction when you know that many people think that's what you did?"
Patsy Ramsey: "They are wrong, I don't know what else to say. How else do you say no except no?
No means no."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) Over the last several months, we have spent a great deal of time with the
Ramseys, these favorite villains of the tabloids...
(Program showing background shots of John Ramsey struggling to turn a jeep around in a yard)
John Ramsey: (In jeep) "These big old tires make this hard to turn"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "...and have seen them in a way few others have"
(Background shots of movers packing furniture in Ramseys' Atlanta home)
John Ramsey: (In garage holding fishing tackle box) "Fishing box, that hasn't been used in a long time."
(Background shots of Patsy packing items in kitchen)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) On this day just this past summer...."
John Ramsey: (In garage holding flight bag) "flight bag"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : " ...John and Patsy Ramsey are moving."
Patsy Ramsey: "Life has never been the same and it has basically ruined us financially and emotionally
and everything else - so we're scaling back."
Patsy Ramsey: (Carrying box out of house) "My wedding dress"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : "They are selling their million dollar home in Atlanta and moving to a smaller
townhouse just down the road."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : "John Ramsey, once the head of a billion dollar software company hasn't
worked for four years while Patsy has been quite literally fighting for her life."
Patsy Ramsey: (with her paintings) "This is my self portrait. Here's my broken heart, my tears."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : "In a rear unguarded moment........"
Patsy Ramsey: "I thought I would paint during my cancer treatment, but I was just so sick I couldn't do it."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "...without her makeup, without her wig, without even her eyebrows drawn
in, you can clearly see the damage left by the return of her cancer."
Erin Moriarty: "How did you find out?"
Patsy Ramsey: "I was back in February for my annual checkup"
(Patsy playing with dog, Molly.)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Nine years ago Patsy learned she had stage four ovarian cancer. She
made what she hoped was a full recovery but earlier this year she again went through debilitating
Erin Moriarty: "You lost your hair...."
Patsy Ramsey: "Yes. Its growing back. My eyebrows are growing back. It all comes out but you now
what, it's a very little thing to worry about."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In fact Patsy Ramsey has much bigger concerns. Almost from the
moment the body of their six year old daughter, JonBenét was discovered, Boulder police believed John
and Patsy killed their daughter and then staged a kidnapping complete with a rambling two and a half
page ransom note to cover it up."
John Ramsey: "They've never investigated this case other than to investigate the family. They have
never investigated this case."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Even though a Boulder grand jury, in 1999, looking at all the evidence decided
not to indict the Ramsey's, and while police say they haven't ruled out other theories, to this day the
Ramseys remain the prime suspects, as you will see in this video tape obtained exclusively by 48 Hours."
Lin Wood: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition of Mark Beckner) "You have not classified
any individual as a suspect."
Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Publicly, correct."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While testifying under oath in a civil case just last November, Boulder
Police Chief Mark Beckner admitted what had never before said publicly."
Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Internally, John and Patsy are
Lin Wood: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition of Mark Beckner) "Both of them."
Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Yes"
Lin Wood: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition of Mark Beckner) "Are considered to have
probably been involved in the death of their daughter."
Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Probability, yes"
Erin Moriarty: "Why do you think you remain probably the prime suspects in the eyes of the Boulder
Patsy Ramsey: "I asked Mark Beckner that. I came closer to him in the face than I am to you, Erin,
and I said, 'Tell me what it is that makes you think I killed my beautiful, precious child?' and he said
'Well, well, it's just a lot of little things.' I think he really doesn't know."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But because police didn't have enough evidence, sources within the
investigation tell 48 Hours, the police tried to psychologically break the Ramseys hoping one or both
John Ramsey: "It was a strategy that was put in place to bring immense pressure on us to break us."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "That strategy, by some in the department, claims John Ramsey, included a
relentless campaign of leaks fed mostly to the nations tabloids, that had a devastating effect on the
Lin Wood: "They convinced the public of guilt."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Lin Wood is John and Patsy Ramsey's attorney"
Lin Wood: "You couldn't go to buy groceries for your family without passing headlines that said that John
Ramsey had molested his first daughter. Absolutely false. Headlines that John and Patsy Ramsey were
pornographers. Absolutely false. Headlines that they were devil worshipers. Absolutely false."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The Ramseys believe that the Boulder Police still, to this day, continue to
ignore evidence pointing to other suspects.
John Ramsey: "It's frustrating. It's disappointing. It makes me angry."
Erin Moriarty: "You say it makes you angry but you don't seem angry. Do you think that's also hurt you
in the eyes of the public?"
John Ramsey: "Well, we're not soap opera actors. I mean, I suppose if I was an actor I could act really
angry, but I'm not, that's who I am. That's what you see and I'm angry (slapping one fist into palm of
other hand) This is angry for me."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Angry because John Ramsey says a killer or killers remain free."
John Ramsey: "What I do know is that we didn't kill our daughter, so let's look at the rest of the picture, guys."
Part 2 - The Interrogation
Detective Lou Smit (June 1998 police interrogation tape): "Today's date is June 23, 1998 at Broomfield
Police Station. We are starting right at 9 o'clock."
Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape): "Today's date is June 23, 1998 at
Broomfield Police Station. The time is approximately 9:04am"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A year and a half after JonBenét was murdered, John and Patsy Ramsey
sitting in separate rooms at the same time, were questioned by Boulder authorities in a Colorado police
station. These tapes have never before been seen publicly."
Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - talking to John Ramsey) "There's been a lot
of speculation by a lot of people that maybe you didn't know anything about the murder, but maybe
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Questioning John is Lou Smit, a homicide detective then working for the
Boulder DA's office."
John Ramsey: "That's preposterous. I mean, Patsy loves both her children dearly but frankly, she and
JonBenét were extremely close."
Detective Tom Haney: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - talking to Patsy Ramsey) "A Christmas
morning photo of the kids"
Patsy Ramsey breaks down
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Detective Tom Haney questioned Patsy who at the time was taking medication for both anxiety and depression."
Detective Tom Haney talking to Patsy Ramsey "If I told you right now that we have trace evidence
that appears to link you to the death of JonBenét, what would you tell me?"
Patsy Ramsey: "That is totally impossible. Go re-test."
Detective Tom Haney: "How is that impossible?"
Patsy Ramsey: "I did not kill my child. I didn't have a thing to do with it."
Detective Tom Haney: "And I'm not talking, you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
Patsy Ramsey: "I don't care what you're talking about."
Detective Tom Haney: "I'm talking about scientific evidence."
Patsy Ramsey: "I don't give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I
didn't do it! John Ramsey didn't do it. And we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it! So we all
got to start working together from this day forward to try to find out who the hell did it!"
Erin Moriarty: "48 Hours Investigates has acquired these tapes - hours upon hours of footage that take
you inside the investigation. While the tapes show how strongly prosecutors believe John and Patsy
Ramsey were responsible for the death of their daughter, frankly, there isn't a lot of physical evidence
that links them, so questioners looked for inconsistencies and focused on minute details from the crime
Detective Lou Smit talking to John Ramsey: "What have you heard about pineapple?"
John Ramsey: "Well, we were asked, you know, did JonBenét eat pineapple because apparently it was
found in her system. I think part of the question was, when did she eat it? When she got home? And
I'm sure she didn't because she was absolutely sound sleep."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The Ramseys told police that JonBenét had gone straight to bed that night
and had not eaten at home but autopsy results did find undigested pineapple in JonBenét's stomach
and police discovered fingerprints on a bowl left in the families dining room on the morning of the
(jameson note - the pineapple was in her intestines, not in her stomach.)
Patsy Ramsey: "I didn't put the bowl there. Okay? I did not put the bowl there. I would not do this
set-up like this."Detective Tom Haney "But okay, let's go back to your line of reasoning here. If they weren't... Now talk to me."Patsy Ramsey: "Okay."
Detective Tom Haney "Look at me. If they're not yours, and they're not John's, then they would be
Patsy Ramsey: "Right"
Detective Tom Haney: "Now, I'm telling you they are not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one
of the two of you."
Patsy Ramsey: "They do? You're sure."
Detective Tom Haney shakes he head yes
Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I don't know. I did not put that there."
Erin Moriarty: "The finger prints on the bowl are Patsy's, according to police, suggesting she's the one
who gave the fruit to her daughter. But if Patsy did give it to JonBenét and is lying about it, then
investigators wondered could she be lying about everything."
Detective Tom Haney: "You know, sometimes the simplest, most obscure little thing could be so
Patsy Ramsey: "Right. I did not feed JonBenét pineapple. Okay? So I don't know how it got in her
stomach. I don't know where this bowl of pineapple came from. I can't recall putting that there."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "After three days of questioning, the interrogation in 1998 ended and even
though the Ramsey's were not indicted, Boulder authorities continued to believe they were guilty. So
in August of 2000, prosecutors flew to Atlanta, where the Ramseys were living, asking to see and hear
new evidence. 48 Hours has also acquired those tapes.
Michael Kane: (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "If ever there were going to be an
intruder on trial the defense is going to be that you did it. Remember that?"
John Ramsey: "I remember that, but I am not here to prove my innocence, I'm here to find the killer of
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "With John, prosecutors asked questions mostly about leads he had
uncovered on other suspects, but with Patsy, interrogators were more accusatory, suggesting they
had new evidence, clothing fibers that would tie her directly to the murder."
Bruce Levin: "You were shown photographed wearing a red coat"
Patsy Ramsey: "It's kind of a black and red and gray fleece"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Bruce Levin from the Boulder's district attorney's office led the
Bruce Levin: "Mrs. Ramsey, I have scientific evidence from forensic scientists that say there are fibers
in the paint tray that match your red jacket."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The paint tray is significant because a brush from it, along with some
rope, was used to strangle and sexually abuse JonBenét."
Bruce Levin: To Lin Wood - "We believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenét's neck, were found on the blanket that she was wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that was found on the mouth."
To Patsy: "I have no evidence from any scientist that suggests that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket."
Lin Wood: "Well, come on, what other sources did they test."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Patsy's attorney, Lin Wood asked prosecutors to produce the evidence
and when they wouldn't, he refused to let Patsy go on the record. But she did go on the record with
Erin Moriarty to Patsy: "What do you think about these fibers?"
Patsy Ramsey: "After John discovered the body and she was brought to the living room, when I laid
eyes on her; I knelt down and hugged her. But I was, had my whole body on her body. My sweater
fibers or whatever I had on that morning are going to transfer to her clothing. "
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In all the questioning, the prosecutors focused more on Patsy than John,
following their belief that she was the killer."
Detective Tom Haney to Patsy Ramsey: "JonBenét got up and somebody in that house - legally,
lawfully, in that house - one of the three of you - also happens to be up, or gets up because she makes
noise, and there is some discussion, or something happens, there's an accident, somebody........."
Patsy Ramsey: "You're going down the wrong path, buddy."
Detective Tom Haney: "Okay, somebody accidentally or somebody gets upset over bedwetting. That's
one of the things that's been proposed, okay?"
Patsy Ramsey: "Didn't happen. If she got up in the night and ran into somebody, it was somebody
there that wasn't supposed to be there. I don't know what transpired after that, whether it was an
accident, intentional, premeditated or what not, but it was not one of her three family members that
were also in that house. Period. End of statement."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "These tapes don't always show the Ramsey's at their best, but
remarkably, it was the Ramseys who made them available, saying they want all the information on this
case out in the open. As for the Boulder Police and prosecutors, they denied repeated requests from
48 Hours to discuss these tapes or any of the issues we're raising tonight. Their only comment on the
Ramsey murder investigation is 'no comment'"
Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape) "I mean, I appreciate being here. I appreciate it. It's very hard to be here, but it's a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in Atlanta Georgia wondering every second of every day what you guys are doing out here. You know, have you found anything? Are we any closer? Is the guy out here watching my house? You know, is my son safe? My life has been hell from that day forward and I want nothing more than to find out who is responsible for this."
Part 3 - Scene of the Crime
Lesley Stahl: "So far tonight, you've had a chance to see and hear John and Patsy Ramsey's denials. You seen for the first time how they handled themselves under police interrogation. But what story does the physical evidence tell in the murder of their daughter JonBenét? According to some detectives it's a far different story than what the public has been lead to believe. Once again, here's Erin Moriarty."
Lou Smit: "This murder was not conducted upstairs in a nice little bedroom. This murder was conducted in the basement and it was very vicious and during the murder somebody sexually assaulted JonBenét. This was all done in the deepest part of that house."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "One hundred miles away from where JonBenét Ramsey was murdered,
in a modest home in Colorado Springs..."
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Lou Smit) "How often do you think about this case now?"
Lou Smit: "Probably every day"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Sixty seven year old Lou Smit works every day alone trying to find her
Lou Smit: "I keep a picture of her in my wallet."
Erin Moriarty: "You have JonBenét in your wallet?"
Lou Smit: Sure. I keep it all the time.
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "This is the same Lou Smit you saw interrogating John Ramsey back in
Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape talking to John Ramsey) "And I concentrate
my investigation on you"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A veteran detective."
Lou Smit: (pointing to plaques on wall) "This one is the homicides I worked on"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "With such an impressive record for solving homicides, the Boulder
District Attorney hired him on the Ramsey murder case."
Detective Lou Smit talking to John Ramsey: "I have to stick up for the Boulder Police Department a
Erin Moriarty to Lou Smit: "When you first started, who did you think killed JonBenét Ramsey?"
Lou Smit: "My gut feeling was the parents did it"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But as Smit followed the evidence and questioned the Ramsey's the more
he became convinced that the Boulder police were focusing on the wrong suspects."
Lou Smit: "John Ramsey came through very very sincere."
John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape) "So when I first found her, I was like, thank God I
Lou Smit: "When I left that interview, there was no doubt in my mind that he had nothing to do with the
death of his daughter."
Erin Moriarty: "Smit quit the investigation in disgust."
Lou Smit: "They hired me as a detective to look at this case. They may not like what I say, but I'm
going to say it. I don't think the Ramseys did it and I think they ought to start looking for people
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smit says it's in the evidence. The autopsy report, the intricate garrote
used as a murder weapon, the strange marks on JonBenét's back and most importantly the information
found in this DNA report."
Lou Smit: "As a detective I'm looking for clues"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What is it that convinces Lou Smit that someone other than the Ramseys killed their six year old daughter? First and foremost, the brutality of the crime. Nearly every medical expert who has seen the autopsy report agrees on one thing. This was not an accidental death. JonBenét Ramsey was cruelly and deliberately murdered. We need to warn you that what you are about to see is disturbing."
Erin Moriarty (Talking to Lou Smit) "What do we see here?"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "JonBenét was strangled not once, says Smit, but twice, with this
intricately made device known as a garrote that had to have been made by the killer during the murder."
Lou Smit: "You see hair right inside the windings of that cord. That's JonBenét's hair."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "It's a device, says Smit, that was not left there for show. Whoever killed
JonBenét used the garrote to strangle her."
Lou Smit: "That shows a very brutal death. Notice how bright red that is. I'm being very clinical here.
That is bright red. What that means is that she was alive when that was pressed into her neck that hard."
neck after garotte removed
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "JonBenét was not only alive, Smit believes she was fighting for her life.
There were marks that look a lot like scratches on her neck"
Lou Smit: "She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. I'm pretty sure that's a scratch to get that
off. I think she was struggling then."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "At some point the child was then hit over the head with such force it crushed her skull but her nightmare wasn't over. Shortly before she died, investigators believe she was sexually assaulted with a piece of the paint brush to make the garrote."
Lou Smit: "There is no motive for the parent to do that."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The evidence, says Smit, simply does not support the popular theory that
the Ramseys struck their daughter then tried to cover it up."
Lou Smit: "It's not a mother waking up in the middle of the night saying, "oops, I think I hurt my child,
oops I got to bring her downstairs and fashion one of these things then I'm going to put it around her
neck and I'm going to tighten it a couple times while she's struggling." Now if you want to believe that,
go ahead, I can't say this on the air, but that's bullshit."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But what about those fibers from Patsy Ramsey's jacket that police say
were in the paint tray and on the sticky side of duct tape covering JonBenét's mouth?"
Erin Moriarty: "Is the fact that there were fibers that were consistent with Patsy Ramsey's jacket
Lou Smit: "Sure."
Erin Moriarty: "But does that shake your faith that the Ramsey's were not involved?"
Lou Smit: "No, you just can't rely on fiber evidence because fibers could come off the jacket or
something similar to the jacket."
(image of blanket and duct tape as found in windowless room)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What's more, says Smit, there were also dozens of unidentified fibers that
didn't come from the Ramsey's and Smit is unaware of a single case where a parent used a garrote like
this to kill a child."
Lou Smit: "This is one of the best clues left behind by the killer. This shows what's going on in his
mind. This is a sexual device. I'm looking for a pedophile that's a sexual sadist. That's what Lou Smit's
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smit's not the only one"
(images of Ollie Gray and John Sanagustin in van)
Ollie Gray: "There are 57 pages of names that have come out of the tip files."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Colorado private detective Ollie Gray and his partner John Sanagustin
were hired by the Ramsey's two years ago."
(Background shots of rear of Ramsey Boulder house)
John Sanagustin: (Pointing toward house) "That would be JonBenét's room on the second level"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Even when the Ramsey's ran out of money, Ollie and John stayed on the
Ollie Gray: "We probably do something on it two or three times a week."
Erin Moriarty: "Even though you're not getting paid?"
Ollie Gray: "Sure"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "They became convinced of the Ramseys' innocence after seeing this lab
(photo of CBI lab report dated January 15, 1997 - a report that excludes the Ramseys as possible
sources of the unidentified DNA under JonBenét's nails and mixed with her blood in her panties.)
Ollie Gray: "I acquired a document that you see right here that names John and Patsy Ramsey as
suspects... was submitted for analysis reference DNA"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Just Days after JonBenét was murdered, her parents' were asked to give
DNA samples to the Boulder police. "
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to John and Patsy Ramsey) "The two of you have given samples to the police?"
Patsy Ramsey: "Absolutely"
John Ramsey: "Absolutely, blood, hair, we've given them everything they asked for."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Their DNA was compared to foreign DNA found under their daughter's
fingernails and in her panties, which may have been left by the killer."
Erin Moriarty: "Does any of that DNA match anyone in the Ramsey family?"
Ollie Gray: "No, this analysis eliminates the Ramsey's"
Patsy Ramsey: "If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested us in a New
York minute and don't ever think they wouldn't have"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "If not the Ramsey's, then who killed JonBenét?"
Part 4 - Scene of the Crime
(Background shots of Ramsey house including window grate)
Lou Smit: "This is how I believe the killer got in."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Retired homicide detective Lou Smit was still working on the official
investigation when he concluded a stranger came into the Ramsey home"
Lou Smit: "He opened the grate and he went in..."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "...and killed their six year old daughter."
Lou Smit: "There's three windows there. The center one was the one that was open. Take a look real
closely at the one on the left. What you're going to see is the leaves and debris pressed right up
against the window. Now let's take a look at the one again in the center. No leaves or debris."
Erin Moriarty: "Which says?"
Lou Smit: "That window was open. Directly below that open window you have a suitcase, directly
around that suitcase you have leaves and debris from that window well around that suitcase. Also, see
if you look very closely, you're gonna see a mark goes right down the wall."
Erin Moriarty: (Pointing at photo of wall by window) "Right here"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A scuff mark that Smit believes was left from someone either climbing in
or climbing out"
Erin Moriarty: "And you can fit through that window?"
Lou Smit: "Oh, without any problem."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In fact he has as you can see in this video shot as part of Smit's investigation."
(48 Hours showeda tape of Smit climbing out basement window - since I have yet to figure out how to capture images off the TV to post here, I will share the image of him going IN the window....it was from an older program.)
Lou Smit: "It's much easier to go out that window if you stand on something. You put the suitcase in
front, you step on the suitcase, and you're right out into the window well. Lift the grate - you're
gone. It's that easy."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But why would an intruder kill JonBenét and leave the bazaar two and half page ransom note with paper and pen belonging to Patsy? Boulder Police have always believed that Patsy used it to make it look like an intruder killed JonBenét."
Erin Moriarty speaking to Lou Smit: "But if someone had been targeting JonBenét Ramsey, wouldn't he
at least bring the paper and pencil to write this ransom note, I mean...."
Lou Smit: "They probably wouldn't bring it in. Why would you bring something in that can be traced
back to your house where you have actual the pen and the ink and you have the paper right there
that it was written on?"
Erin Moriarty: "But you can't count on finding that in the house."
Lou Smit: "Can't count on it. Most houses have that."
Erin Moriarty: "No expert could eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the writer of the ransom note. That's
damning isn't it?"
Lou Smit: "No not at all. You're always going to have similarities in handwriting. To sit down and write
a note like that, with all of those details in there after brutally killing your daughter, you'd never done
that before? Come on, give me a break."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But more than any other evidence, Smit believes these small marks left on
JonBenét's face and back prove an intruder killed her."
Lou Smit: "The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A stun gun, an electrical weapon used to incapacitate the little girl in
order to move her to the basement. Smit believes only an intruder would need to use one. "
Lou Smit: "There is no reason at all for the parents to have used a stun gun to help stage the murder
of their daughter."
Erin Moriarty: "Was there any indication that the Ramsey's had ever owned a stun gun?"
Lou Smit: "There was nothing to indicate that the Ramsey's ever owned a stun gun"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What is significant about these injuries, says Smit, is that those on the
child's face, and those on her back, appear to be an equal distance apart".
Lou Smit: "They are approximately 3.5 centimeters"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Much like the prongs of this stun gun"
Lou Smit: "And they are approximately 3.5 centimeters apart."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "And if I push this..."
(Dr. Michael Dobersen demonstrates stun gun)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Michael Dobersen"
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "...you can see the electricity arching"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County, also believes the marks on
JonBenét were left by a stun gun."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "What we have to do is match up the injuries with the weapon."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "And to prove it, he used one on the skin of an anesthetized pig."
stun gun on pig, marks from JBR on bottom
Erin Moriarty: "What am I seeing on the left?"
Lou Smit: "What you are seeing on the left, is, you're seeing the actual injuries on the back of JonBenét, the marks are similar in size and shape and color and they are a certain distant apart.. On the pig too, you see marks that were left on the skin of the pig."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While there are some differences, both Dobersen and Smit believe the
experiment confirms a stun gun was used."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "If it's not a stun gun, I'd like to know what it is."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Three other pathologists agreed, but the Boulder Police are relying instead
on this man's opinion."
(Erin Moriarty talking with forensic pathologist, Dr. Werner Spitz)
Erin Moriarty: "How sure are you that it's not a stun gun?"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Well I'm a hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Werner Spitz, a nationally known pathologist who has worked on
major cases including the assassination of J.F. Kennedy."
(photos of marks on pig and marks on JonBenét)
Erin Moriarty: "This was found on her and this was done on a pig skin."
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the ones that JonBenét
has? They don't look like that to me, at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn,
essentially. And these don't look like burns."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenét's face was left by
a snap on a piece of clothing."
Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans, for instance. If you look at this
one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnifying glass you will see that within
this brownish mark there is a boat shaped structure which is missing in any of the other injuries."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Unfortunately, with only photographs to go by, no expert, not Dr. Spitz
nor Dr. Dobersen, can be one hundred percent sure."
(Moriarty talking with Smit and Dobersen)
Erin Moriarty: "Wouldn't that have been or the best way to know or come the closest to knowing, is if
you could have exhumed the body and line up a stun gun and see if it matches those injuries?"
Lou Smit: "Sure, I believe that would have probably been the most accurate way to do it."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Lou Smit admits that in the months following JonBenét's death,
investigators considered going to court to have her body exhumed but decided against it."
John Ramsey: "We had buried our child, she was in peace, that was just an abhorrent thought"
Erin Moriarty: "But John, that might have been the one way to know for sure, that could have resolved
the whole issue, because if a stun gun was used, it was not the parents."
John Ramsey: "Certainly, and we've got people who told us who know what they are doing that with
95% medical certainty that a stun gun was used. No question."
Erin Moriarty: "But you would have known with a hundred percent certainty if you had exhumed the
body, as tough as that would have been."
John Ramsey: "That's my child you're talking about, it's not a body. It's different."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Still, Smit believes a stun gun is the key to JonBenét's murder."
Lou Smit: "I see the killer at the end of the intruder path"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "And he's searching for the killer or killers who own one."
Lou Smit: "The person who did this, if we're right, he's still out there."
Part 5 - Face In the Crowd
Lesley Stahl: "The investigators we have spoken to say there are literally dozens of people the police in Boulder Colorado should have taken a closer look at. But they haven't, say the critics, because police remain focused on JonBenét's parents as the prime suspects in her murder. Erin Moriarty has been following up on several leads pursued by the Ramsey's investigators and she focuses in now on one man with a frightening past."
(Background shots of the 1997 vigil for JonBenét at the Boulder house)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "On a cold December night that marked the one year anniversary of
JonBenét's murder, dozen of mourners showed up for a candlelight vigil outside the Ramsey home.
One man in particular caught investigator Lou Smit's eye."
Lou Smit: "Many times, criminals do return to the scene, and that was on the anniversary. That puts him
right there at the Ramsey house a year later."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "He's Gary Oliva, a thirty eight year old a convicted sex offender from
Oregon who lives in Boulder."
Lou Smit: "He definitely is a sex offender for assaulting another seven year old girl in Oregon; he spent
time in prison for that."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smit is convinced that a pedophile came into the Ramsey home and killed
Lou Smit: "On my computer I've probably got 25 good leads and I probably have another 50 pages of
other leads to follow."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Among the files he's keeping on sex offenders in Boulder, Gary Oliva's
name stands out. In 1991, the year after he sexually assaulted the little girl, police reports say he
tried to strangle his mother with a telephone cord. And in December 1996, Oliva may have been just only few
houses from JonBenét's bedroom window."
(Ollie Gray and John Sanagustin in alley behind the Ramsey house)
Erin Moriarty: "This is the alley behind the Ramseys."
Ollie Gray: "This the alley that runs behind the Ramsey's home, leads into the back yard, the garage
(Images of the alley - I will try to capture these from the TV - - for now, I offer a photo I took of the alley just so people can get a clue as to the character of the area.)
John Sanagustin: "It was not uncommon for JonBenét and Burke to ride their bicycles around the alley
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "John Sanagustin and Ollie Gray, the Ramseys' private investigators say
that Oliva frequented these buildings owned by a local church"
Ollie Gray: "A lot of transient people come here for food and also to pick up their mail."
Erin Moriarty: "But why is this relevant?"
Ollie Gray: "The Ramsey home is what, ten houses..."
Erin Moriarty: "Right up this alley...."
Ollie Gray: "...right up this alley."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Why do they believe he was in the neighborhood the night JonBenét was
Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "He called me on the
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Because of this man and a phone call he got from Gary Oliva."
Michael: "He related to me that he had done something horrible."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "He asked us to identify him only as Michael, Gary Oliva's best friend
from high school"
Michael: "He mentioned he was in Boulder in the phone call."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The call, Michael says, came just days after the Ramsey murder. Gary
told him he had hurt a child."
Michael: "He just was sobbing like you never heard a grown man sob or cry before in your life and I
knew it was serious.
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "So serious that Michael, living in a nearby state, called the Boulder
Erin Moriarty: "What made you connect that phone call and your friend with the murder in Colorado?"
Michael: "The things he told me in the phone call .... the cassette tapes."
(images of cassette tapes)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "These cassette tapes."
Michael: "Look how many tapes, I've got four times as many tapes as this."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "After high school, Michael and Gary thought a fun way to keep in touch
was through audio tapes"
Michael: "I'd go to Carl's Gym and interview somebody, he'd go to a store and interview a macaroon
cookie, stupid stuff."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But in 1989, Gary's tapes, once amusing, changed dramatically"
Michael: "The tapes got darker, a song with lyrics I can't repeat, more depraved and sicker. On this
tape it sounds like he is killing an animal. It would turn my stomach. On this tape he talks about
necrophilia. This ain't about a macaroon cookie anymore. This isn't funny anymore. On this tape you
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What you're about to hear on this tape, according to Michael, is Oliva at
his worst, pretending he's been left alone to baby-sit a friend's daughter."
Michael: "Oh you can't play this on camera"
Erin Moriarty: "Why?"
Michael: "Oh, he's talking about raping a little girl on camera. Oh, this one makes me sick"
(Playing cassette tapes that Gary Oliva sent to Michael)
Gary Oliva on tape: "How are you doing Roonette?"
Little girl voice: "Fine"
Gary Oliva on tape: "That's nice. Now, why don't you come over here and sit on my lap and let me
touch your back, how do you like that?"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "On another tape he talks about hurting a child"
Gary Oliva on tape: "Some of the things that I do, like making bacon strips out of little girls, I'm into it,
you know, being a sick dog"
Erin Moriarty: "And this wasn't a joke?"
Michael: "These tape are not a joke at all. When you listen to these cassette tapes you got to do
something. If you're a human being. I mean, you have to."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Michael said he left all his information on the Boulder police tip line"
Michael: "I told them about the cassette tapes. I told them about the phone call. I mentioned I had
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What did the Boulder Police do with this tip? Nothing. According to Lou Smit,
the police didn't follow up on 95% of the more than 3,000 phone tips that came in. In Oliva's case,
they didn't investigate him until nearly four years after JonBenét Ramsey's death, when he was caught with
drugs... and guess with what else? A stun gun."
(Gary Oliva in Boulder County jail being interviewed by 48 Hours)
Erin Moriarty: "Did you ever use that stun gun on a child?"
Gary Oliva: "No"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Oliva, who is wanted in Oregon for parole violations, turned himself in to
the Boulder Police two weeks ago."
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Gary Oliva) "Did you hurt or kill JonBenét Ramsey?"
Gary Oliva: "No" (as he shakes his head no, then he turns facing directly into the camera and repeats)
"No, I didn't"
Erin Moriarty: "Didn't you tell your friend that you were attracted to little girls?"
Gary Oliva: "I don't think I want to answer that."
Erin Moriarty: "OK. You were living in Boulder at the time JonBenét was killed?"
Gary Oliva: "Yeah"
Erin Moriarty: "Just down the street?"
Gary Oliva: "Yeah"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While Oliva says he doesn't remember making the disturbing audio tapes,
what he will admit to is an obsession with JonBenét. "
Gary Oliva: "I believe that she came to me after she was killed and revealed herself to me."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "As it turns out, we are not the only ones interested in Oliva. A Boulder
Police officer showed up to take notes"
(showed a Boulder police officer sitting on a chair taking notes on Oliva's interview)
Alex Hunter: "I would be concerned if any lead was not fully taken to ground."
Former Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter said police tried to follow up on pedophiles but admits
that early on the force was clearly overwhelmed.
Erin Moriarty: "Didn't your office have to tell police officers. "You got to look at these other leads. You
can't just focus on the Ramsey's."
Alex Hunter: (Talking to 48 Hours) "Well it was said, probably not in quite that language, but yes."
(Oliva asking for a cigarette as he is led away from interview)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) Why didn't authorities take a sex offender like Oliva more serious? Just
this week Boulder Police said Oliva is not a suspect. Sources say his DNA doesn't match evidence at
(Note - in newspapers the following day, Chief Beckner said he WAS a suspect and no one had been
John Ramsey: "Nor does ours"
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to John and Patsy Ramsey) "What do you think of that?"
Patsy Ramsey: "I think it's a double standard, don't you?"
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Alex Hunter) "Is it fair to say, then, that the state of the evidence right now,
there just isn't enough to convict the Ramseys beyond a reasonable doubt?"
Alex Hunter: "There isn't enough to convict anybody beyond a reasonable doubt."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But Alex Hunter believes that some day this case can be solved - although he
doesn't think Lou Smit is the man to do it."
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Alex Hunter) "Do you think Lou Smit's feelings for the Ramsey's clouded his
Alex Hunter: "I think a little bit"
(image of Lou Smit and his wife, Barb, walking into Church)
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Hunter believes Smit, a devote Christian, crossed a line - when working
as a DA investigator, he prayed with the Ramsey's"
Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Lou Smit) "Do you think you have gotten too close to the Ramsey's?"
Lou Smit: "Well let's put it this way, I don't think I did. If the Ramsey's did this and I found out, I'd be
the first one standing in line at the Boulder Police Department"
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "JonBenét Ramsey would have been twelve years old this year and in sixth
grade. Instead, she is buried in a Georgia cemetery while her brutal killer, or killers, go free."
Lesley Stahl: "From the moment of JonBenét Ramsey's murder, police admit mistakes were made at
the crime scene that make the case harder to solve. That's been a source of frustration for
investigators who suspect her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, and for others who believe it had to
be someone else. Yet even with all the frustration, and despite the passage of time, almost six years,
nearly everyone working the case agrees on one thing. They say there is still enough good physical
evidence to make this a solvable crime and there is still good reason to believe that there will
eventually be justice for JonBenét Ramsey.